PR Honcho (4/14):
Joe - As usual, the Arabs are the bad guys and Israel is the good guy. You are a skilled writer but your essays almost always lead to this conclusion.
What has antagonizing the Islamic world won the U.S.?
What has blindly supporting Israel achieved? We tried a "crusade" -- Bush's word -- in Iraq and it failed miserably. We threatened Iran and Syria and that served only to make inflammatory copy for the Islamic media.
While Bush was focused on these, the nuclear-armed Pakistan (our ally?) is besieged by Islamic extremists. It is past time to engage Muslims in dialogue. If that offends Israel, so be it.
Joe Honick, GMA International Ltd (4/14):
Honcho, for your information, supporting Israel has resulted in a flood of nanotechnology, medical advances and more than that, through Democratic and Republican administrations, it also resulted in almost 100% support in the very UN that has excluded Israel from UNESCO and the International Red Cross.
We have hardly alienated Islam, given that American governments and industry have helped to advance the petrochemical industries of the major Islamic countries, defended their borders at no cost to the beneficiaries and a lot more.
I noted that there were no comments from you with respect to criticisms of the Saudis who have feasted on our massive investments in the Middle East that included hundreds of thousands of men and women and other precious resources.
Finally, not all predominantly Islamic nations are alienated as a little study of some will show you.
And really finally, I have always harbored some distrust when not on Kuwaiti person left our shores to help defend against Hussein as our men and women did the mop up to oust the Iraqi dictator, nor have the ultra wealthy Saudis risked much to be of help no matter how you or I disliked the Iraq mess.
For Honcho's further less informed understanding, the United States has "engaged" at a minimum the following predominantly Muslim nations for various involvements: Afghanistan(where we daily risk huge numbers of American lives),Egypt(which smartly engaged Israel in a relationship and vice versa),MOrocco(which wants nothing to do with foolish enemies),Maylasia, LIbya(run by a murderous dictator whom we have indeed engaged), Jordan(which undertook a peace relationship with Israel), Eritrea, Kuwait(for whom we risked thousands of American lives with none of theirs involved), Qatar, Kosovo...and actually more including Saudi Arabia where we have billions of investment and private sector involvement. Now what is it precisely you would wish to enhance?
Thinkman2 (4/15):
PR Honcho might also find it instructive to read the confusing and questionable entanglement of DLA Piper with the Saudis as evidenced elsewhere in this newsletter.
Fed Up In NYC! (4/15):
PR Honcho- When you say "engage the Muslims in dialogue" who are you referring to? The Taliban? Al Queda? Bin Laden? And what have the "Muslims" done for us? Typical "blame America" first... Well done Mr. Honick. Thank you for your insights.
PR Honcho (4/15):
Joe and Fed Up - A couple of typical responses to any question of America's blind support for whatever Israel does. Case in point, the colonization of the occupied lands. Even many Israeli's see this as an unnecessary provocation.
Another case in point, Israel's scorched earth blitzkreig of Gaza last year that killed and wounded many more innocent Palestinians than Hamas militants responsible for firing rockets into Israel. And what happens to an Israeli that wants to try to find an equitable peace? They end up dead like Yitzhak Rabin, shamefully murdered by a radical right wing Israeli.
There are more than 1 billion Muslims in the world.
A fraction of them are radicalized and militant. But you two see them as all the same... and make my point for me.
Joe Honick, GMA International Ltd (4/15):
Honcho, the idea that there is "blind" support for Israel on colonization etc. is simply false to the core. That we do not ostracize them is something else. I would also suggest you do some history lessons on the territories there without doing it here.
You have biases that don't let go. How do you, for example, address the similarly "blind" United Nations realities of more than 65 anti-Israel resolutions and virtually none toward the Arab nations?
Why do you think it acceptable for blind acceptance of a murderer like Gadaffi into the family of nations?
What are your reactions to Arab financed assaults at the Munich Olympics, the Yom Kippur invasion of Israel, the murder of old men at prayer in Paris, machine gunning of a deli in Paris, murder of a wheel chair bound old man on the Achille Lauro cruiser, a similar spraying of machine gun fire in Tel Aviv Airport and many more incidents that brought virtually no negative response from the United Nations?
As to reaction in Gaza, what would you do if we rocketed your personal neighborhood ... send a protest post card?
Finally as to those criminal acts by some Israeli soldiers, the difference in Israel is that these people are brough to justice and imprisoned.
Your reference to Rabin about what happens to those who work for peace is totally false as witness the continuing commentary from Haaretz and the organizations that do just that.
I am often critical of Israeli policies because there and here in the US, we have something that does not exist very much in Saud Arabia and similar places: it's called freedom of speech and press.
Further to Honcho: there are scads of other issues in this piece beyond the Middle East. You seem to be at peace with all the others. Your "blind" reaction to all Obama policies is not quite mature.
I probably worked harder for his election than you and feel totally qualified to raise these questions.
Veep (4/15):
I gotta step in and back Honcho here, Joe. There is plenty of "blind' support for Israel and somehow it became U.S. policy to pander to Jewish voters by "standing by" the country, regardless of the heinous way in which it chooses to "prosecute" terrorists.
Leveling city blocks to kill a few militants is not only cruel, it's insane. Israel needs to rethink its policies the way the U.S. is reviewing its own.
I'm an American not an Israeli. In my opinion no country deserves that type of one-way special relationship.
PR Honcho (4/15):
Joe - Questions?
More like an angry, self- righteous rant.
And again, you make my point. Islamic terrorist atrocities excuse Israel's atrocities?
Two wrongs make a right? Americans are supposed to bless whatever Israel does because, well, it's Israel?
All 1 billion Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers?
Somebody fires a rocket into the U.S. from Canada and we level Toronto? Nonsense. Time for some objectivity and a much closer look at what is best for the United States where Israel is concerned.
Joe Honick, GMA International Ltd (4/16):
Honcho, you've done it again with those silly questons.
First, the long article dealt with much more than the Saudis and other recipients of our tax dollars with no return to us.
Second,you jumped all over the place when your claim we do not engage the Muslims was disproved. Third, you have made claims witn no comment about any of the atrocities visited not only on Israeli territory for many years but on Jews in many parts of the world.
In short, despite your desperate efforts, you only rant but seem to have no sense of any history beyond the most recent few months, nor doyou have any understanding of the broader issues mentioned here ... but your prejudices are quite clear.
Fed Up In NYC! (4/16):
Honcho-Veep: I respectfully disagree with your positions- which is obviously more than I can say for you.
That being said, I find the hypocrisy to be astounding. A staunch but admittedly flawed ally versus a self proclaimed hater of America and all our interests... yet you find it in your hearts and minds to give THEM the benefit of your generosity.
Unbelievable...
Wes Pedersen (4/14):
Joe, you came close but failed to ask the question outright: "Where is the outrage?"
Why are we of the paranoid persusion not out in the streets with signs demanding the heads of those corporations that accept our money -- OUR money! -- and then boast of grostesque profits and demand that the government back off from oppressive measures of oversight? Why aren't we publicly mad as hell at these bums?
Secretly, I suspect, we are afraid we will be branded as nuts for protesting out loud when others cower in their caves and whisper, "We ought to do something."
The princes of economic darkness need to be dragged out into the light and charged publicly with aiding and abetting the incompetent CEOs who are looting not only their companies but the U.S. Treasury.
All of this should occur because the people have at last demanded action to protect theirs from them.
In fairness were considered, we ought to demand immediate repayment of all the money we have "loaned" failing governments abroad.
The one glaring problem here is that we are ourselves in hock up to our eyeballs to countries such as China, the communist country we continue regard as inferior to ours.
If some of us are paranoid, it's only because we are locked in a bubble of despair over a lack of recognition that we may be the only sane people around.
We may be paranoid ranters, but we do recognize the right of free speech in a tight-laced economy.
Joe Honick, GMA International Ltd (4/15):
To Wes, thanks for the question I seemed to have left out unintentionally. It is also regrettable that Honcho seems not to know there is no unanimity among Muslim countries simply because of the word "Muslim" and that we have indeed embraced such nations in many ways.
In previous wars, when we had bases in East Africa, military forces being airshipped to them had to stop in Dar Es Salaam where even American military orders(I saw those orders)forbade Jewish soldiers from deplaning while the Saudis at first during the Kuwait conflict wanted to ban Christian services among our military.
Arthur Solomon, [email protected] (4/16):
To PR Honcho -- I think that history will show that the U.S. has been overlooking the "Arab faults" -- to put it kindly -- since the 1930s, when we figured it out that our industry was depended on their oil. Beheading people, stoning people for adultry, cutting off arms for thefts, beleaving in a free society with equal rights for all, hijacking planes and ships, encouraging suicide bombers, holding free elections, threatening to drive Israel into the sea. And you wonder why so many people support the only democracy in the region. Mr. Honick -- You have it exactly, 100 percent right.
Joe Honick, GMA International Ltd (4/17):
I am truly humbled(no small task)by the comments from these fine gentlemen.
Wes Pedersen (4/17):
Joe, knowing you, I am sure you have some statistics that will bolster your point -- that while supporting Israel in many ways, the U.S. has given aid and comfort in as many ways to Israel's enemies. There remains one indisputable fact: we need oil if our country is to survive. It's one hell of a task, juggling that constant need with a desire to back a country created with our strong support.
Arthur Solomon, [email protected] (4/20):
Mr. Pedersen -- You are absolutely right. The U.S. needs oil. But I think I'm right also when I say that history shows that playing footsie and appeasing despotic governments eventually backfires. The U.S. is a better country than playing nice-nice with depots (who hate our values anyway).
Joe Honick, GMA International Ltd (4/20):
Wes, re the need for oil from the Saudis, it is significant that the Chinese have LOANED billions, not given, to both Russia and Brazil to assure that Asian country of years of oil and gas. A report of a few years ago also pointed out that, despite the oil reserves in the Middle East, much our oil comes from Canada, Central and South America.
What is not noted, however, is the lobbying and economic stranglehold the combination of the Saudis and American and foreign industry have on the whole decision process and how all that tends to impact political decison making. Your concerns, however, are quite on point and appeciated.
To Wes about statistics: There are endless tables of such statistics and not only with respect to Israel's enemies to get oil but at times to our own.
Joe Honick, GMA International Ltd (4/21):
A final note to Honcho and colleagues: today something fraudulently called the International Conference on Racism opens on Hitler's birthday with a featured speaker who is the president of Iran. He holds the "distinguished" stance of asserting that the Holocaust was a myth and argues for the complete destruction of the State of Israel. That President Obama has joined with numerous other nations in boycotting the conference is significant. What is sad, however, is that representatives from Great Britain are attending as follow ups to Neville Chamberlain-like visits to Hamas and Hizbollah in the apparent belief that leopards can also lose their spots.
GOPlease (4/22):
Watching Honcho and Honick duke it out reminds me of a line from a movie in which the Mafia was doing battle with a bunch of Colombian drug lords: "I don't know who to root for!" To be sure, Joe has righteous indignation down to an art form. And, I'm now convinced that Honcho is actually Barack Obama.
Joe Honick, GMA International Ltd (4/23):
I thought we had finally concluded this. For GOP, Honcho and I are hardly duking it out if you will read the commentary clearly. Honcho essentially has been a no-show in terms of informed discussion as veterans like Messrs.
Pedersen and Solomon have demonstrated as well. Actually, many of us have been persuaded that you and Honcho were and are the same people creating set up crankiness.
One hopes we have now covered the only part of the article Honcho seems to have read, having avoided the parts related to bailouts and banks and the realities of how our economy has been drained by an unappreciative Saudi/Kuwaiti/Iraqi and other governments who might have seen our efforts as reimbursable.
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